Board index Photography Artistic Questions SCHOOL FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS ???

Artistic Questions

SCHOOL FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS ???

Discuss style and artistic aspects of photography
akjack
 
Posts: 66

SCHOOL FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS ???

Post Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:11 am


With all the new "digital wonders" infecting the photography market these days I believe that a new construct is needed for the photography profession if it is or will still be considered a "profession" in the future. I believe that instead of going UP the publics preception of professional photography is coming down ! With lower standards it leaves open the possiblility of more WAL MART type operations killing the independents who are struggling in many cases these days with the total overkill in almost every market of new photographers who think they are going to set the world on fire in a supersaturated market. I hear the horror stories of how the inexperienced weekend wedding warriors for example ruin many wedding with inexperience and sub-par images. I belive that at least a four year degree or photography school is neeed to create a barrier to entry into the photography field just like other professions have degrees, exams etc. !

photomary
 
Posts: 333


Post Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:23 am


There are plenty of 2-4 year degree programs and it is up to the business or individual who is doing the hiring what credentials they are looking for, just as in any job.

You actually think that in order to advertise oneself as a wedding photographer one should be made by the state to get a 4 year degree? I consider that an absurd idea! If someone who is getting married doesn't have the sense to ask to see a website of wedding images or portfolio of images, then they get what they deserve - they obviously are trying to get it on the cheap and that's what they wind up with.........It does not demean the photography profession, just like cheap toys from China do not demean the toy business as a whole.

Photographers who get out there and hustle, build up a portfolio, advertise with a decent website and show they can get the unique and stylish images the bride is looking for, will get the work and be able to charge a decent fee. Wedding photographers get lots of work through word of mouth...if the bride is happy, she spreads the word....Enough said.........at least by me........

akjack
 
Posts: 66

If what you say is true Mary

Post Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:06 am


then why do many other professions have "barriers to entry" like the law profession for example. It used to be in some states that all you had to do is read some law books and you could hang out a shingle as a lawyer. This is the current state of photography. ie. pick up a digital camera, get a website and start making some money, just enough to water down the potential profits of the full time pros. This is reality, this is what is going on ! And all the camera companys, get rich quick photo seminars and photo magazines could not be happier ! One group that is not happy are some album companys loosing business because of cut-rate wedding photographers selling only CD's.

dougj
 
Posts: 2276


Post Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:28 am


A person can have excellent credentials - degrees, professional organization membership, etc. and these are no guarantee of the level of services he/she will provide. Good theoretical knowledge, but unable to compose, etc. will result in customer disappointment.

Although I think no one would argue that an education is a waste of time, in fact it is critical in many fields. Still there are numerous examples of highly respected people in history that were lacking formal university training.

Thomas Edison, Leonardo da Vinci, Michaelangelo and Mark Twain are among this group. Although many love to hate him, Bill Gates only received an honorary degree last year.

I would be surprised if the good/top photog pros get asked about their formal education before they are hired for an assignment. Their work and results are what their clients are after.

The digital age naturally means people have PCs, and demand more digital information. Substitution of prints by CDs is a frequent topic in the pro digital forum on dpreview.

The general feeling is that prints are on their way out as the only medium for images, and the business model is changing. Some of the wedding pros simply capture their former print profit by selling the images on CD. They don't see it as a problem, technology evolves, it's what the customer wants. It's interesting to note these folks shoot primarily with DSLRs.

The customer ultimately determines value and the market price. If someone can do an equivalent job, or meet the customer's needs, at a lower price, that's free market competition at work. There aren't too many places were price fixing or protection still works in the consumer market.

akjack
 
Posts: 66

Dougi

Post Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:13 pm


Yes, Degrees many times are simply the "passionless pursuit of passionless intelligence" and as the wizard told the scarecrow "you scarecrow are just as smart as those with high degrees at famous universities, only they have a diploma" The purpose of many degrees or exams, or clubs, or etc. is to keep too many people out or a gatekeeping function. Sad to say, that is the state of the world and I believe it's time for such a system for photography or it will remain the anarchy it has become. One reason this country is in bad shape is the trade imbalance with China, where tariffs and taxes would help, not hinder, as the free trade mantra starts to sound like a death knell ![/url][/list][/list][/code][/u][/quote]

photomary
 
Posts: 333


Post Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:43 pm


I know, lets insist that those who sell anything in any way, shape or form get a 4 year degree first and pass a rigorous test so that there aren't too many people in line to get all those jobs in sales.

A doctor or nurse can kill you (even with a medical or nursing degree).

A lawyer can allow you to rot in prison for life (even with a law degree).

A photographer can make you look like you've had a bad hair day with or without a photography degree.......sorry but that's one more layer of bureaucracy we surely don't need.

Work hard, make a name for yourself in your location and you'll do just fine. Or, get your degree and attempt to get a position as a photographer for a newspaper/magazine/business.

Okay, I guess I just couldn't stand not responding again. :roll:

akjack
 
Posts: 66

Mary

Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:11 am


Yes, All true, but I'm not talking about quality of service. I'm talking about limiting the field in some way. I can think of few professions that let just anyone become a professional in a field with NO qualifications ???? It's absurd !!! Limiting the field would make it more professional and give a viable reason for high prices... Because there are no qualifications for being a photographer is why photogs are not highly valued in the stock and advertising field "Oh, well, we can ALWAYS find someone else" is what is said behind closed doors. I get tired of customers calling me and stating "How come you are the only photographer that answers their phone" ? the reason being that the phone books are overloaded with part-timers who are working a 9 to 5 job during business hours. This gives the potential client a great impression of the profession. You don't get answering machines at doctors or lawyers officies.

azato
 
Posts: 17

Re: Mary

Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:27 am


Why not seek to put a high tax on cameras instead, especially those over 2MP? If it cost a person $1000 dollars in taxes for a DSLR, only serious people will own cameras.


Seriously, I think seeking to limit the commercial liberty of others for the sole reason of being able to make more money is wrong. I am sorry that you are not making the money you think you deserve as a photographer. Perhaps there are better ways for you to do that without stepping on my rights.


akjack wrote:Yes, All true, but I'm not talking about quality of service. I'm talking about limiting the field in some way. I can think of few professions that let just anyone become a professional in a field with NO qualifications ???? It's absurd !!! Limiting the field would make it more professional and give a viable reason for high prices... Because there are no qualifications for being a photographer is why photogs are not highly valued in the stock and advertising field "Oh, well, we can ALWAYS find someone else" is what is said behind closed doors. I get tired of customers calling me and stating "How come you are the only photographer that answers their phone" ? the reason being that the phone books are overloaded with part-timers who are working a 9 to 5 job during business hours. This gives the potential client a great impression of the profession. You don't get answering machines at doctors or lawyers officies.

rileypm
 
Posts: 678


Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:45 am


In the town where I live, there is a cafe, fast food, or other eatery on nearly every corner. Most of them serve slop and only a few are outstanding. I think I will lobby the city council to set new and higher quality standard for them so that only the best and most expensive will be allowed to operate. I guess we could keep a couple of the slop buckets open to feed the starving photograpers.

I want higher professional standards for airline pilots, doctors, lawyers and anyone that my life, saftey or livelihood depend on, but a photographer's standards are self evident in the work he/she does.

And since when is photography a profession? It can be a job, business, hobby, art form, but a profession? Because one does something for pay may make them a professional at that particular thing but it does not make that thing they do a profession. (I can dig ditches like a pro, but ditch digging is not a profession, just a dirty back breaking job).

akjack
 
Posts: 66

Another thing is :

Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:38 am


that by having people in the field that do not consider photography a "profession" but on the same scale as an eatery or ditch digging, they in effect defacto lower the standart of the profession and also photographic images ! One reason that sub-standard photographers exist is that by watering down the market with average or below average work, the buying public which many times are not that sophisticated when it comes to judgeing imagery, become even less astute in judgeing good work and will pay lower prices just to get a "picture", not a fine portrait.

The question i constantly ponder is what in the world gets into a persons head that they should join the crowded field of photography without any kind... usually... of art background or dealing with people or business accumen??? Why do they think they can do this "profession" but yet will not try professions that call for more intellectual and exact requirements for entry into ??? I guess when they look at the billions of trash images out there, they say to themselves " Oh, man, i can do that"..... I got into the business that way myself !!!! Sad commentary !!!

akjack
 
Posts: 66

AZATO

Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:49 am


Please explain what "rights" you have ??? Many college degrees state things like this document entitles by law by virtue of the state charter of the university all the rights, privileges, and honors pertaining thereto : to the degree holder....There in nothing to my knowledge that the unchartered, unregulated, undocumented profession of photography has any said "rights" !!! And please don't bring up free enterprize free maket myths.....Chinas so-called free maket is making the U.S a third world colony !!!

dougj
 
Posts: 2276


Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:14 am


You have acknowledged that basic business acumen is required for a photography business. This naturally includes fundamental marketing, sales and customer relations.

You identified questions potential clients ask about answering the phone, pricing differences, etc. Good, now put together some honest, yet convincing answers/sales arguments that illustrate why your services are better. If your services are not better than the low-end photogs, or clients don’t think they are, what do you expect?

Good photogs do not rely on the telephone book for customers, and this is definitely not marketing. Nor is hanging tear strips on the community bulletin board in the local supermarket. Unless this is the market segment you want to sell to.

Any reasonable full time pro has their own website. The design and functionality of a well done professional site provides a good first impression, and the gallery of photos on the site is their ‘diploma’.

I mentioned before the customer determines value and will decide what the market price is. If you sell low quality services, you will get low pricing. Provide higher quality and services, market properly and you’ll have a different client base, one that will pay more.

And the dialog on China turning the US into a 3rd world economy is absolute rubbish. Industries such as shoes, clothing, steel, minerals, etc. moved outside the US to many lower labor cost countries long before China geared up to exporting.

The American Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai published a study about 2 years ago that the net exports from Asia to the US had not increased dramatically. The change was more a shift of exports away from other Asian countries to China.

The US consumer cannot have cheap DVD players, socks, toys, etc. and highly paid US factory workers manufacturing these items. They vote on this every day when they walk into WalMart and Best Buy.

Another interesting tidbit from AmCham – China’s single largest customer is…….WalMart.

azato
 
Posts: 17

Re: AZATO

Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:05 pm


Right now I have the right to sell my services, unfettered by the government. The only requirement is that I pay taxes on income and sales. I can, at virtually any time, "practice" photography without worry of arrest or fines. You however want to change that.

You also have failed to justify why the government should regulate this trade. Simply because you are not happy with the money and the artistic direction as a whole is not enough.

But, I have the feeling that you are simply trolling. Which, by the way, isn't a bad thing.






akjack wrote:Please explain what "rights" you have ??? Many college degrees state things like this document entitles by law by virtue of the state charter of the university all the rights, privileges, and honors pertaining thereto : to the degree holder....There in nothing to my knowledge that the unchartered, unregulated, undocumented profession of photography has any said "rights" !!! And please don't bring up free enterprize free maket myths.....Chinas so-called free maket is making the U.S a third world colony !!!

azato
 
Posts: 17

Re: AZATO

Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:07 pm


Checking your link that simply goes to dead space simply proves that.

azato wrote:
But, I have the feeling that you are simply trolling. Which, by the way, isn't a bad thing.






akjack wrote:Please explain what "rights" you have ??? Many college degrees state things like this document entitles by law by virtue of the state charter of the university all the rights, privileges, and honors pertaining thereto : to the degree holder....There in nothing to my knowledge that the unchartered, unregulated, undocumented profession of photography has any said "rights" !!! And please don't bring up free enterprize free maket myths.....Chinas so-called free maket is making the U.S a third world colony !!!

akjack
 
Posts: 66

CHEAP LABOR

Post Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:07 pm


poor quality goods, tainted food products, dangerous toys for kids, etc. etc. yes, cheap labor and undocumented workers are the facts. China or Mexico or India, it's all the same.

Websites are just the new phonebook or bullitin board. They all look the same now with the generic templates, small type, music and flash and heavy manipulated images. Without the manipulation usually by graphic tech persons, not the photog, the images would look mundane and many times that is what the customer will get unless they want to spend more on "artwork".

These countries you speak of already limit the number of students accepted into school even befor high school. This is why their test scores and achievment is so much higher than average, no child left behind American schools. (see video today at Yahoo)

A lot of what is said above about marketing, product, service should be left in the textbook 101 course where it belongs as theory as much of it is not applicable in the real world of competitive photography where there are no barriers to entry due to educational standards, lack of infrastructure (expensive studio and equipment) expense....this is why so many wannabes say they do location....the only cost is a digital camera !

What other business models lets you in with a camera, a song, and a dance ? Even prostitution requires more experience !!!

Next

Board index Photography Artistic Questions SCHOOL FOR PHOTOGRAPHERS ???

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests