Constructive Criticism - On pBase?

[mnoble]

Not sure I understand this. I got a respected photographer to mentor me online. I would post images and have him critique them. I felt I needed that kind of feedback to push myself. Sometimes, "crop" was exactly what he suggested and what was needed. I try to get it right in the frame at the time I shoot - probably what we all try to do, but sometimes it doesn't happen.

Rene is very lucky to get this kind of input. This is CONSTRUCTIVE. Without ego and only with the intention of mentoring. This is very helpful. I have a young photographer who has asked me to help him and teach him. I hope I can be as good as Rene's mentor.

[sean_mcr]

Because to be frank 99.9% of "input" inloves cropping & cloning ect ect which is exactly what's being sent up in the link i gave at the start

( http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.c ... ernet.html )

Again the link below sums up how i feel about the vast majority of forum based input.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/colum ... 0-27.shtml

Yes my eyes glaze over. If it's enough for anybody else, then enjoy it.

Keep shooting

Sean

[sean_mcr]

If i hear crop or clone my eyes glaze over

Not sure I understand this. I got a respected photographer to mentor me online. I would post images and have him critique them. I felt I needed that kind of feedback to push myself. Sometimes, "crop" was exactly what he suggested and what was needed. I try to get it right in the frame at the time I shoot - probably what we all try to do, but sometimes it doesn't happen.

Here is an example of one of his critiques where the message was to crop and clone, or tighten the image. BTW, it was a flower fairly close up.

Generally, I think that the left and right edge of the frame are different from the bottom and top (especially the top). That is, we're put together so that we accept (and sometimes expect) blank areas at the top (aka sky) and bottom of the frame, and often it's constructive photographically to include areas like that because doing so emphasizes the rest of what's in the frame. A good example would be a lone tree silhouettted against the sky, with just a bit of foreground but quite a lot of sky over the top - this composition just about shouts 'lonely'. Empty space on the sides, though, doesn't work in the same way.

In this image, look at the left edge. Cover up the right hand side of the image and leave just the part to the left of the 'm' in your signature. What is in that section that's actively contributing? What it seems to be contributing is just space, to get the flower into the right spot in the composition. So if you crop off that bit of blank space on the left, all of a sudden you have a new problem - the image is no longer balanced nicely. To rebalance, you need to adjust the other edges - perhaps cropping a bit off the right.

There are two nice features that I think dictate where the left edge ought to go - the leaf angling down into the lower left corner, and the bud behind the leaf. If you crop just to the left of the 'm', all of a sudden that leaf falls into the corner (Nice!) and the bud is close enough to the edge that it becomes a bit more prominent.

The downside here is that if you crop on the right, you lose the nice cluster of leaves or whatever in the lower right corner. Maybe clone them into the newly cropped corner?

My goal in all of this is to tighten up a composition which seems just a bit loose. What do you think?

Rene

What's lacking in the majority of net comments is any kind of look in to the actual meaning in the photograph, how it made them feel how they connected with it. The reason why most people avoid talking about such things is because it's much harder to talk about it. WOW is no more insightful then "Crop it" "Clone it" Is no more use then "Nice shot"

Most net critics come to a photo cold, have very little care about what they are seeing or connection with what the photographer is trying to express. You can learn the rule thirds in day (in a hr) takes a lot longer to actually look deep in to yourself and your photos to express something that actually describes you and the a how you see the world. Because that is much harder talk about it's often avoided and it's actually the most important thing.

Two photography students were shown photographs from WW2.

First student:

"My great-uncle died at Dachau."

Second student:

"Mmm. Say what you want about the Nazis, they definitely had the coolest uniforms." (Hugo boss designed them actually)

Now the former is more likely to tell you how a photo made them feel (not with a "wow" or "Voted!")

The latter is more likely to tell you what needs cropping


Take care

Keep shooting


Sean

[madlights]

I sort of understand both sides of this...but to a degree. Rene asked someone to suggest a better crop...or to take a look...I've done that for people...and asked people I respected to do that for me...because if you ask someone you respect to help with accomplishing your intent...you can take it or leave it. But I do believe that if you look at truly great artists in any medium...they break rules...the rule of 3rds...the rule of anything...in order to accomplish their intent...to express an idea or an emotion...there are no rules. And for example even just in sheer design the rule of 3rds can be broken..sometimes the dynamics of the composition can dictate it. I mean look at Picasso...most people don't have 2 eyes on the same side of their head...or Bresson with his Leica and basically one lens...go on DPR and tell 'em you shoot with one lens and a rangefinder and they'll laugh you off. There's a famous photojournalist who uses Olympus digicams (mention you use a digicam on a DSLR forum .....So artists break all kinds of rules?...People mean well in general I somewhat (?) believe...but as an artist of any kind you've got to think if what they are telling you is really helping express your intent...your feeling, and yourself. Sometimes people help you do that, sometimes not...and it's much easier for someone who really knows you as a person and maybe what your 'vision' is to do that. If someone does ask me to critique' something...I'm always very careful to explain that I'm sure not an expert at what they're trying to say...and that if I don't like something it's probably due to my own personal taste...and tastes vary greatly. Myself have been helped more by someone challenging my complacency, to open my eyes...rather than someone who demands me to follow every rule. I think anyone who gives or takes criticism had better be able to ignore it, or be ignored if doesn't serve the ends of what the work intends to 'say' or is just extraneous in regards to it...or is someone who demands you follow the rules. Remembering a line from Bob Dylans song 'George Jackson' that goes something like: "Sometimes I think the whole world is one big prison yard...some of us are prisoners and some of us are gaurds"

[sean_mcr]

Barri,



I know that rules should only be learnt so you can learn how to get around them, i was just highlighting what you see said again and again

If somebody looks at a photo and the first thing to enter their head is crop clone ect. Then they're looking at the photo in the most simplistic of terms and if somebody wants' advice from somebody with that kind of mindset, then more power to them. But they'll only ever really be expressing somebody else's idea of how their photos should look.

Why is that you think so many images look the same on photo sharing sites? It's because so many people are setting themselves up as teachers and they've normally graduatead from the school of crop sanitizing images to such a degree that they end up being the photographic equivalent of a stepford wife. I watched the remake of the Invasion of the body snatchers last night, I'd wait for the DVD Barri. Thankfully there's no real body snatchers to suck the humanity out of you, so we can all sleep safely in our beds. But there are vision snatchers and they'll crop your individuality out of existence, of course this is for your own good. A new improved you right their in your photos. They'll sort you out with their CLONE tool in seconds. Beware for they are hard to spot as they look like everybody else, quite often their images do to.







Tongue in cheek Barri, but many a true word...





Keep shooting





Sean

[madlights]

No I didn't mean the thing about the rules toward you sean...I meant it toward the soul cloners.and croppers Some think following the rules that they've learnt should apply to all..and go around "body snatching" people's pictures with them. As I said the only critics I've learned 'real' stuff mostly from, is people who've challenged my complacency...who've got me to open my eyes to maybe a different way of seeing something..or argued with me to open my closed mind...No it's the clone croppers who always think the rules "have" to be followed....opening a persons eyes or thoughts is a lot harder than cloning out a jet trail...

[brickfielder]

Very few people actually want criticism what they are actually looking for are a broader range of choices to make when making the next shot. With this in mind I tend to comment if there is something I like about a shot and occasionally will perhaps talk about how I might have approached the shot.
The first allows me to enjoy others photos and to pass on that I enjoyed it, the second does not instruct or say the shot is wrong but may give extra choices next time someone makes a shot.

[pinemikey]

It's pretty bad that we have a whole sub-group of photographers who tell us how to take and not take photos, now we are being told what to say when commenting on photos. I didn't know there were people going around critiquing my critique. Almost as pathetic as just saying "Wow", huh? If I tried only to take pictures of deep soul fulfilling meaning, I might only get one in a lifetime...if at all.

Just another subgroup who should have about zero influence on the people who continue to enjoy photography and never turn themselves inside out trying to please others, but still like to hear from fellow enthusiasts about how they would approach the way a photo was taken or presented. So now we are back again to the majority of us photographers - people having fun, wishing to take the pictures correctly but not so hung up on the idea that we miss out on opportunities that pop up all around us.

[jude_53]

Having been on Pbase for 3 1/2 years this is my view (I was going to say "short view" but I knew it wouldn't be):

I started out wanting criticism or should I say pats on the back - I say this because it is what MOST people here want instead of real criticism, even when they ask for it. Once I got enough pats on the back, which i appreciated, I wanted to improve ALL ON MY OWN. I looked at work I liked and tried to figure out what appealed to me, etc.

Pbase has never been one for constructive criticism, but on Flickr there are groups you can join where you post a photo and it is rated, or criticized. I realized soon after that I didn't care what people thought I should do to change or "improve" my photo - that I loved what I loved and it was great to have others feel that way but not necessary for me to think my piece of work was good or bad by their standards. Now this didn't come easily. It took years of not having a thick skin and being upset when people i admired did not like my photo. I just suddenly knew I loved what I did, and as Sean said, it has a special meaning to ME which makes it what it is.

On Pbase, I began commenting only on photos that touched me and then the comment was about how the image made me feel. That is important, I think, for the photographer to hear - what emotion the viewer has in reaction to seeing the image.

I can't even imagine wanting someone to mentor me, although I know that others find this helpful. This is not because i think my work is perfect or even close - technically I'm still a goober. THIS is because the images speak to me and make me feel what I feel. I don't need someone to teach me what my photos should be. And I also don't need to please anyone but myself.

I do not do weddings unless the bride and groom are aware that I shoot what and how i want. Yes, I take ideas they have and yes I do shots they might want, but I tell them off the bat that they need to look at my work and see if it's a style they like - if not, do not hire me. I have never had one couple disappointed in my work because they know what they're going to get.

I no longer sell photos I've taken that were suggestions from gallery owners and others - ones that could bring in the money, so to speak. I was told that, although they loved my more mood-filled photos, they didn't think they'd sell in this area. Well, I did what they suggested and it was dissatisfying. About eight months ago I decided to follow my intuition, because I really don't want to be known as a "boat" photographer, or whatever I think the masses might want.

I was correct. I have been very successful because my energy and emotion is attatched to the images. New agey, yes, but very true.

The bottom line is by doing what others believe follows the rules or makes a photo more appealing to others doesn't necessarily mesh with what I like.

I do photography because I am in love with it.
I do not want to wake up one day and realize it has become a chore.
Are you in love with your work?

Of course, I do have a technical advisor (a friend I trust completely) but even he knows I do what I want. His technical advice (using RAW, fixing noise or avoiding it, etc) is invaluable. He would no sooner tell me when and where to crop than tell me to lighten my photos.

hey wait, he DOES do that ... then we both laugh.

[madlights]

It's pretty bad that we have a whole sub-group of photographers who tell us how to take and not take photos, now we are being told what to say when commenting on photos. I didn't know there were people going around critiquing my critique. Almost as pathetic as just saying "Wow", huh? If I tried only to take pictures of deep soul fulfilling meaning, I might only get one in a lifetime...if at all.

Just another subgroup who should have about zero influence on the people who continue to enjoy photography and never turn themselves inside out trying to please others, but still like to hear from fellow enthusiasts about how they would approach the way a photo was taken or presented. So now we are back again to the majority of us photographers - people having fun, wishing to take the pictures correctly but not so hung up on the idea that we miss out on opportunities that pop up all around us.

I don't think there's anything pathetic about saying "Wow", Mike. I've felt "wow" looking at some of your shots. I also have seen some of your shots that have a lot of 'intent' ships full of stories..going to the scrapyard...or lives centered around the coast down there...and know you felt something strong when you took the shots. I think it's about who am I to criticize in a petty way what somebody sees or feels or thinks...or tell them " you broke the rules"? Or if I don't understand why they broke a rule...who am I to question it? Nobody snaps more random pics than me...LOL. Anybody sure has the right to say whatever they think about my stuff...I've got my comments turned on full blast...and sometimes I have found it very helpful...but we also have a right to ignore criticism also. I've got over 2000+ pics on here and I don't know if any of 'em comes out of my soul either...but I on the other hand have seen photos on PBase that are very powerful...and seen suggestions left public, rather than private...that maybe a crop here...or a clone there...when I've received these they've been made private in a helpful way...rather than in a "I know this and you don't" like I've seen in a few other people's galleries...and I find that objectionable and in bad taste...as I'm sure you would too. I don't think constructive criticism is wrong at all...it's just got to be taken for what it's worth...and we've all got to have somewhat thick skins and at least let it make us think before we agree with it, or disagree. I also find that someone that challenges the way we look at things or even the way we think about things...someone that challenges our complacency (as both you and sean have done when reading your posts) gets me thinking more than rule setters (not that there's anything wrong with rules...we gotta know em to break em) ....naw people shouldn't be afraid to say what they think, in my mind...if it came across like that, but they ougtta use some discretion...and maybe think about the intent of the photographer...and if somebody says something you don't like...grow a thicker skin. Edit: Jude must've posted at the same time as I. I find what she said very well said..and I've come to think in much that same way in another field that is closely related to this. Edit again: There's an old Chinese proverb that goes something like "Never give advice...for a wise man doesn't need it...and a fool won't take it" Maybe that could apply here too regarding criticism? One other thing...if someone criticizes my picture...at least I know they looked at them...I mean really looked and spent some time...which is kinda nice really. Nobody brought that up...So there's a lot of angles to this all...and I've even posted 2 versions of some of my shots (sometimes 3 to confuse them) to ask people which look "better" since it helps me to learn to convey my intent. There's nothing wrong with asking for criticism if you can take the heat...but for people to just randomly and non privately do it...I hesitate on thinking it's cool.

[sean_mcr]

took a shot for amnesty international last week who have an office in my home time Manchester. I got a comment " the candles are blown out" (not on Pbase i might add). Now at first i thought, 'they look lit to me'. Then when i realised what they actually meant, i almost cracked a rib through laughing so hard.. But what wasn't funny and it's something i've never been able to forget is the time i totally confused somebody by not agreeing that a shot of rape victims during the the war in Kosovo would have been better had they been sharper.


I have to say the the shot of the guys cat was as sharp as its claws and his lens boxes were well maintained, i saw the shots myself.

[pinemikey]

I think you went past my comment. I'm not saying that just saying "wow" is pathetic, I'm knocking those who think it is insufficient because they feel commentary should always be insightful and deep. That's the pathetic part. When I comment on a photo, I usually compliment it if I like it, then respond only if they are asking for some input. Then I try to strictly give just options to how they took the photo or how they presented it. Sometimes how we even approach a scene can be improved. How many times have we've gone through our photos and thought that we could have changed how we shot the scene? I have all sorts of cues in my head for the next time I visit a place to try and remember to shoot from a different perspective. So I try only to give opinions if it is asked. I have commented on a few images here and there over the years without being asked but again I word it in a way as not to be patronizing, which is a problem for one of the posters in this thread. Even though I don't state it explicitly, I also am glad to receive genuine commentary from people viewing my photos. I DO NOT appreciate someone trying to compare my photos to something they saw in a book or magazine taken by someone else. That is NOT commentary, it's comparison.

[madlights]

Whoops I edited my comments in my last post at the same time you guys were posting...and yeah I'll give opinions if someone asks too...and privately. This to me is what's great about PBase: that even when people take polarized positions on something...it really challenges the paradigm that we have. It opens our eyes to another way of thinking..we might agree or disagree...but it makes us think...and maybe we get to see that it's not all Black and White (I love black and white it's so simple at first both in photography and in thought, but then it gets more complex )

[halesr]

I have been participating in this discussion and oddly today got an email from Jim Zuckerman (have taken a class online from him) talking about self-critique. Perhaps this is what we are all striving to be able to do better.

Here is what he says about "Self-Critique

Because the ability to self-critique your work is so important, I thought I would show one of my own photos each month and critique it. I have no problem being direct and honest with myself about my work, and I'm going to share that with you. One of the primary ingredients in a useful self-critique is a dispassionate examination of the image. Emotions are not part of the equation. It doesn't matter if you loved a certain place or a particular experience. That can't cloud your judgement as you look at your work."

He goes on to analyze a recent photo he took in Africa. He finds lots to like about the image, but also some technical difficulties with a soft foreground that could have been corrected with a slower shutter speed and smaller aperture. He concludes that in this instance, he was shooting too fast and not considering the details.

I think that sort of goes along with pinemikey's comments about thinking how you might shoot differently upon returning to a previous location.

I guess I got into being critiqued by going to workshops. You pay your money and you hope to grow during the experience. The leader, who you have selected because you respect their work and/or their teaching, discusses your portfolio and your shots during the week. I have never had a teacher that tried to remake me in their mold, but they do try to push me to reach, stretch, and get better. I don't feel that they have ever changed the subjects I LIKE and the type of shots I take. They have helped me come to identify my own style and perhaps how I aproach the visual world from my own internal experiences.

My mentor guy, and I do think of him as a mentor, has pointed out that it is important to share the images that you are not comfortable with for whatever reason. And, get feedback on them. They often signal a period of growth and moving into new areas of trial and error and experience.

When I suggest (in private) a crop or clone, I do so as a means of heightening the drama/impact of an image that I have already found interesting. I usually say, you might want to try this and see what you think. I definitely ascribe to the conviction that we are the DECIDERS. Any suggestion or comment you get, is just that. You make up your own mind what your intent was and whether you like the input.

Another thing that is interesting to think about when shooting, is what was your FEELING at the moment you clicked the shutter? Was there an emotional attachment? Does that get communicated in the final image?

I also like getting photographic assignments that push you. This frequently happens in workshops and you end up with images you would have never dreamed of taking.

anyway, I am enjoying the discussion and it is making me think,
Rene

[sean_mcr]

My point about "Wow" is this. What are you meant to learn from that? If we're talking about critique here, which is why the thread was started. What does the person who said it learn about photography, how does that help them become a better photographer?

I've never gone in to somebodies gallery and told them to alter a photo or that the photo doesn't work for whatever reason. I naturally seek out photographers that i can connect with and though we may have never met face to face, we have in our photographs. Like Jude, We have spoken many many times and never once have we spoke about what each of us would have done to the others shots. Whenever i see a shot of Jude's that makes some sort of connection with me, i tell her why that was because she is a photographer that is trying to communicate something. I am the same way with others here


There's not a thing wrong with shooting your cat. There's no dull subjects only poor ways of seeing them. You don't have to take photographs with meaning to enjoy them and you can completely ignore the the wealth of material out there that a hundred net critics could even begin to come close to. It can be year Zero as far as photography is concerned and you can be as happy as the proverbial. There is not a thing wrong with that


It's only when they don the teachers hat with clone tool (ect) in hand telling me what i should do with my photo that they'll get any responce from me

Goodnight


Sean