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Constructive criticism ?
72 posts • Page 2 of 5 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
- Posts: 109
Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:15 pm
I often "break the rules" in my photos but still sometimes want others opinions.
- Posts: 258
Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:13 pm
People down the ages have tried to impose "rules" on photos, as well as on everything else. But, to me, that doesn't work. So, IMHO, a picture is just "out there" for us to look at. If we like it, we like it. If we don't, we don't. To try to "correct" someone is wrong, in my view, as we would be assuming there is some real form of "correct." Of course, if someone asks for criticism, then go for it. But otherwise, why not just enjoy or not enjoy someone's pictures and leave it at that?
I agree. Photos are just there and should be evaluated generally by what they give, show, emote, or whatever, and not by a specific set of rules. As Ansel Adams said, there are no rules for good photographs, just good photographs.
That doesn't mean that some people may WANT to learn different techniques and even "rules" to advance their skills and ability. If they are always looking at other people's photos and saying, "I wish I could take pictures like that," is different than being perfectly happy with everything they do. You can't break the rules if you don't know what they are.
I generally don't care about distortion when I take pictures of buildings, but there was a time I wanted to learn about using bellows on a view camera so I could take pictures without the distortion. When I was learning, it was nice to have feedback on pictures on how best to accomplish what I wanted. The more techniques you know and learn, the more decisions you can make as you photograph- including whether to follow any of those "rules" or use any of those techniques.
So if people want feedback to try to improve their skills or learn other techniques, I think that is fine. That is the way we all learned. If they feel comfortable with what they are doing and want to say, "This is me- this is my art," that's fine also.
Sometimes it is hard though because you don't know if the feedback people want is just, "do you like it?" or if they want specific feedback on techniques or style.
- Posts: 109
Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:45 am
I guess that is one of the gray areas. It seems that a lot of people can't stand anything less than very positive remarks so many are afraid to say anything that might be construed any other way.
If you want some no holds barred critique of a photo, try letting an editor with a deadline staring him in the face, kick the cat while holding one of your photos.
At the moment, there's not much traffic in the critique gallery I set up and after looking at it a couple of times, without knowing the whole setup how could anyone give any ideas on how to change the mood or moment in the photograph? And, isn't that what photography is about a lot of times? We try to capture "the moment" or a mood in a moment in time. Sometimes we try to evoke feelings and sometimes something just looks good.
I daresay most people putting much of a gallery up here are past the "how do you focus and what's the best exposure" stage so there isn't much to comment on about the basics.
I think for the time being I will remove my critique gallery and just put out there what I want. It's all about fun and sharing after all.
If you want some no holds barred critique of a photo, try letting an editor with a deadline staring him in the face, kick the cat while holding one of your photos.
At the moment, there's not much traffic in the critique gallery I set up and after looking at it a couple of times, without knowing the whole setup how could anyone give any ideas on how to change the mood or moment in the photograph? And, isn't that what photography is about a lot of times? We try to capture "the moment" or a mood in a moment in time. Sometimes we try to evoke feelings and sometimes something just looks good.
I daresay most people putting much of a gallery up here are past the "how do you focus and what's the best exposure" stage so there isn't much to comment on about the basics.
I think for the time being I will remove my critique gallery and just put out there what I want. It's all about fun and sharing after all.
Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:03 pm
Having been on this site for over a year, I'd say pbase isnt really the place for learning about what you're doing wrong.. its more of a community that supports the efforts of its members. An example:
I posted a photo on here around November with some lyrics attached. It was a very 'melancholic' photo and it recieved many responses because of the emotion it evoked. I posted the same photo on another site, and it got slated. The exposure was off and I'd chopped off my fingers in the composition. The sentiment was acknowledged but technically it was torn apart lol. Now, I had to agree that I could have composed it better and that it was over-exposed in parts. That to me was helpful criticism. I dont tend to get that on this site.. I think if people dont like something that can be judged by their silence.
So I would say, if you dont like something, think about why not just that is isnt your taste. Technical help is Always appreciated.
I posted a photo on here around November with some lyrics attached. It was a very 'melancholic' photo and it recieved many responses because of the emotion it evoked. I posted the same photo on another site, and it got slated. The exposure was off and I'd chopped off my fingers in the composition. The sentiment was acknowledged but technically it was torn apart lol. Now, I had to agree that I could have composed it better and that it was over-exposed in parts. That to me was helpful criticism. I dont tend to get that on this site.. I think if people dont like something that can be judged by their silence.
So I would say, if you dont like something, think about why not just that is isnt your taste. Technical help is Always appreciated.
- Posts: 488
Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:14 pm
dkite wrote:I've got to say, but one of the best people for giving good constructive criticism, is Anna Yu. Who I think was one of the first people to answer.
Her comments are always thoughtful and very helpful. She's helped me immeasurably.
Dominic.
You are most kind, Dom. My real-life peers and mentors give me a lot of harsh feedback that teach me a lot. Then I became a reviewer at an unnamed and well known stock site and I suppose that went to my head a little bit. Heh.
- Posts: 239
Re: Reasons
Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:07 pm
If people are totally happy with their images then comments and critiques are probably of no interest to them. I'm sure thousands of people use Pbase as a drop and view point for family and friends to see their snapshots.
But it would seem that when one chooses an interactive forum on Pbase they would be interested in feedback. Most using the PAD gallery profess the purpose of the excersize is to improve their skills and art. It's a shame that the generally accepted format of the gallery is one of rather generic backslapping. Praise or silence. That kind of feedback is probably great for an ego, at least until it gets old, but there are several hazards in it. Since beginers are not very deliberate it feeds this impression of "I'm a natural," and there's little motivation to become more deliberate. "Just point and shoot, everybody likes this stuff."
Another hazard is if one's goal is to feel good about themselves they might begin to respond to their audience. There are any number of people who seem to have locked themselves into a specific style, the one that produces the "Great work" and "Perfect composition" oneliners. There is little chance of useful feedback if they decide to push into something new to them. New requires practice and developing the technique and style. If the effort isn't up to the usual quality, instead of providing insightful and maybe helpful feedback, the audience just gets quiet. So it's back to the old tried and true. Stiffling.
That same "If you can't say something nice..." seems the prevalent tone for most of Pbase. Show and Tell rarely stimulates serious discussion of style, technique, equipment or methods either. This is kind of unfortunate. Critique is not about critizising. Some people can leave comments about "This is wrong, and that rule was broken, therefore the whole effort is a waste," but that is not a critique. That person just told me they are pretty rigid and generally fail to truly examine an image.
Critique is about really looking at an image and taking the time to figure out what works for a viewer, what might not, and perhaps why. One can spot technical issues that if handled differently, in the viewer's experience or understanding, might contribute to the image. If an image really works for the viewer they can study and learn. If they understand the intent of the photographer, they might be able to relate why this or that feature either pulls them to or pushes them away from the message. And since no two individuals walk away from the same image with the same experience, a critique may well focus on the impact of the image to them. It might be significantly different from the intent of the photographer. Not good or bad, just different and potentially important.
I would see a respectful, honest critique as a productive interaction. Sometimes it leads to a discussion with the photographer and/or other viewers. People can take away what works for them and leave behind what doesn't. No right or wrong, just what works. Sometimes critique is a solo activity when a person tries to put in words an understanding of an image for their own benefit. Definitely helpful for the critic, maybe or maybe not for the photographer.
It's hard to get better at anything in a vacuum.
Rick
But it would seem that when one chooses an interactive forum on Pbase they would be interested in feedback. Most using the PAD gallery profess the purpose of the excersize is to improve their skills and art. It's a shame that the generally accepted format of the gallery is one of rather generic backslapping. Praise or silence. That kind of feedback is probably great for an ego, at least until it gets old, but there are several hazards in it. Since beginers are not very deliberate it feeds this impression of "I'm a natural," and there's little motivation to become more deliberate. "Just point and shoot, everybody likes this stuff."
Another hazard is if one's goal is to feel good about themselves they might begin to respond to their audience. There are any number of people who seem to have locked themselves into a specific style, the one that produces the "Great work" and "Perfect composition" oneliners. There is little chance of useful feedback if they decide to push into something new to them. New requires practice and developing the technique and style. If the effort isn't up to the usual quality, instead of providing insightful and maybe helpful feedback, the audience just gets quiet. So it's back to the old tried and true. Stiffling.
That same "If you can't say something nice..." seems the prevalent tone for most of Pbase. Show and Tell rarely stimulates serious discussion of style, technique, equipment or methods either. This is kind of unfortunate. Critique is not about critizising. Some people can leave comments about "This is wrong, and that rule was broken, therefore the whole effort is a waste," but that is not a critique. That person just told me they are pretty rigid and generally fail to truly examine an image.
Critique is about really looking at an image and taking the time to figure out what works for a viewer, what might not, and perhaps why. One can spot technical issues that if handled differently, in the viewer's experience or understanding, might contribute to the image. If an image really works for the viewer they can study and learn. If they understand the intent of the photographer, they might be able to relate why this or that feature either pulls them to or pushes them away from the message. And since no two individuals walk away from the same image with the same experience, a critique may well focus on the impact of the image to them. It might be significantly different from the intent of the photographer. Not good or bad, just different and potentially important.
I would see a respectful, honest critique as a productive interaction. Sometimes it leads to a discussion with the photographer and/or other viewers. People can take away what works for them and leave behind what doesn't. No right or wrong, just what works. Sometimes critique is a solo activity when a person tries to put in words an understanding of an image for their own benefit. Definitely helpful for the critic, maybe or maybe not for the photographer.
It's hard to get better at anything in a vacuum.
Rick
Last edited by rickl52 on Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:17 pm
Finally! An answer that hits the nail on the head. I totally agree with you Rick. You've stated your point in a logical and unbiased manner.
all due respect to you!
Shannon
all due respect to you!
Shannon
Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:26 pm
(I have some time this morning so I'm editing last night's rushed post)
Furthermore... I never want to get to a stage where everything I post gets great feedback - as with a prominent photographer on the site who sometimes does miss the mark and post something awful, but having a 'fanclub' seems to provoke positive comments no matter what. It is hard to be the only one to say 'this doesn't work for the following reasons'. I have only braved doing that a couple of times because you come over as a bit of a spoilsport amidst the 'oohs!' and the 'ahhhs!'.
It also seems that the more well known you are (generally from having a good stock of work) the less likely others are to make a real critical analysis of anything you post. I can see how that situation would lead to the things Rick mentions... good for the ego but in the long run what is gained?
There is such a wealth of experience and technical knowledge on here, and yet it is not shared. When faced with truely good work we are reduced to gleaning what we can from the photo's exif info to gauge what that photographer did 'right'.
And I may be hanging myself by saying this but I would welcome critical evalution, I've so much to learn.
Furthermore... I never want to get to a stage where everything I post gets great feedback - as with a prominent photographer on the site who sometimes does miss the mark and post something awful, but having a 'fanclub' seems to provoke positive comments no matter what. It is hard to be the only one to say 'this doesn't work for the following reasons'. I have only braved doing that a couple of times because you come over as a bit of a spoilsport amidst the 'oohs!' and the 'ahhhs!'.
It also seems that the more well known you are (generally from having a good stock of work) the less likely others are to make a real critical analysis of anything you post. I can see how that situation would lead to the things Rick mentions... good for the ego but in the long run what is gained?
There is such a wealth of experience and technical knowledge on here, and yet it is not shared. When faced with truely good work we are reduced to gleaning what we can from the photo's exif info to gauge what that photographer did 'right'.
And I may be hanging myself by saying this but I would welcome critical evalution, I've so much to learn.
Last edited by juliano on Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Posts: 331
Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:42 am
I agree with a lot of what Rick has said. That show and tell forum is pretty much a picture post forum except for a few people with new techniques and what not. If there were a critique forum where people were looking for feedback more specific that might be a good idea but then again you never know what will happen. Most photographers and artists generally have soft skin, especially artists and no one loves a critic. There is a difference between critique and critic. Critics are low forms of humans that have not evolved.
Duncan
Duncan
- Posts: 258
Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:34 am
Very nicely put rickl52. I find it somewhat amusing that we generate better discussion about discussing photographs than we seem to be able to about the pictures themselves 
I have ran into some people who are starting out and seem to actually want feedback on their photographs. A lot of others seem only to want affirmation, or to be told if you like it or not- or only that you do like it. It is hard to sometimes tell who really wants some honest feedback.
The other problem is many of the PBasers probably don't know how to discuss or provide feedback. They tend to judge content often over photographic technique. There are two levels here- content and technique. Content tends to draw more attention here than technique- not that finding good content doesn't deserve some praise at times. A great picture finely composed with great lines, color, and depth even of something interesting would probably be passed by quickly for a sightly out of focus picture of a 5 year old with cake all over their face celebrating a birthday- and both would be passed by a multitude for a bad picture of anything with a breast showing. Discounting the sexual aspect (we all know sex sells), this is a great place to find out what attracts people to certain photographs. Even I am suprised at times. I try to open the first 20 PAD sites when I look no matter what the thumbnail looks like (I would do them all, but there is too damn many!) and I have found some very fine photographs I would have probably missed. There is a lot of great work out there, but a lot of competition to be seen. I also won't leave feedback unless there is something I like and have some idea why I like it.
I am never sure what PBasers may know how to take discussion of their photographs either. Once you get passed learning the basics, feedback is often just to give a different perspective- not to say making it better or somehing could be improved- although some suggestions can improve the image in your mind. When I was in college and with a group of other photographers, we would often discuss each others work. The first thing you learn is with five even very good and skilled photographers- you might get five different suggestions and comments. You learned they were telling you things from their viewpoint and taste and in that perspective- was nice feedback and information. It let you look at your work from different viewpoints. You didn't take it as critical or negative. It would help give you something to think about when shooting next time. I am never sure how some people might take comments.
There are those that seem to want to comment to everyone. When doing my visits, I see several people who seem to go to every single site and leave a "nice picture" comment. I don't visit their sites so they usually don't come back to mine.
I agree too there is a danger that you can start shooting to please an audiance. I redid my galleries last month to get away from that and dropped about 200 pictures- including some of my most popular ones- trying to get more balance to my site. I found myself wanting to duplicate those popular ones in my shooting. I started some galleries I know would have limited interest and slow traffic also. It is hard because even I enjoy knowing visitors stop by and tend to want to attract visitors. I forget who I heard use the term, but there seems to be a little bit of being a "hit whore" in many of us
I have ran into some people who are starting out and seem to actually want feedback on their photographs. A lot of others seem only to want affirmation, or to be told if you like it or not- or only that you do like it. It is hard to sometimes tell who really wants some honest feedback.
The other problem is many of the PBasers probably don't know how to discuss or provide feedback. They tend to judge content often over photographic technique. There are two levels here- content and technique. Content tends to draw more attention here than technique- not that finding good content doesn't deserve some praise at times. A great picture finely composed with great lines, color, and depth even of something interesting would probably be passed by quickly for a sightly out of focus picture of a 5 year old with cake all over their face celebrating a birthday- and both would be passed by a multitude for a bad picture of anything with a breast showing. Discounting the sexual aspect (we all know sex sells), this is a great place to find out what attracts people to certain photographs. Even I am suprised at times. I try to open the first 20 PAD sites when I look no matter what the thumbnail looks like (I would do them all, but there is too damn many!) and I have found some very fine photographs I would have probably missed. There is a lot of great work out there, but a lot of competition to be seen. I also won't leave feedback unless there is something I like and have some idea why I like it.
I am never sure what PBasers may know how to take discussion of their photographs either. Once you get passed learning the basics, feedback is often just to give a different perspective- not to say making it better or somehing could be improved- although some suggestions can improve the image in your mind. When I was in college and with a group of other photographers, we would often discuss each others work. The first thing you learn is with five even very good and skilled photographers- you might get five different suggestions and comments. You learned they were telling you things from their viewpoint and taste and in that perspective- was nice feedback and information. It let you look at your work from different viewpoints. You didn't take it as critical or negative. It would help give you something to think about when shooting next time. I am never sure how some people might take comments.
There are those that seem to want to comment to everyone. When doing my visits, I see several people who seem to go to every single site and leave a "nice picture" comment. I don't visit their sites so they usually don't come back to mine.
I agree too there is a danger that you can start shooting to please an audiance. I redid my galleries last month to get away from that and dropped about 200 pictures- including some of my most popular ones- trying to get more balance to my site. I found myself wanting to duplicate those popular ones in my shooting. I started some galleries I know would have limited interest and slow traffic also. It is hard because even I enjoy knowing visitors stop by and tend to want to attract visitors. I forget who I heard use the term, but there seems to be a little bit of being a "hit whore" in many of us
- Posts: 331
Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:46 am
pathfindar wrote:I agree too there is a danger that you can start shooting to please an audiance. I redid my galleries last month to get away from that and dropped about 200 pictures- including some of my most popular ones- trying to get more balance to my site. I found myself wanting to duplicate those popular ones in my shooting. I started some galleries I know would have limited interest and slow traffic also. It is hard because even I enjoy knowing visitors stop by and tend to want to attract visitors. I forget who I heard use the term, but there seems to be a little bit of being a "hit whore" in many of us
I have deleted two galleries that were in the all time popular galleries because I thought the work had its day and now I needed to move on to something else. It is not as though I thought the work was not good enough to be shown but I felt that I needed to focus on other works. It also eliminates the proclivity for adding more to an already successful gallery.
Duncan
- Posts: 664
Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:00 pm
rickl52 and others have raised VERY valid points. I especially like the idea that a critique becomes more of a conversation about the image rather than a single comment. I also never feel comfortable with suggestions/critiques on this site as you don't know whether people only want praise, or more of a critical analysis. Most of my suggestions are in private comments and when I praise an image, I try to say what worked for me. BUT, I also like the idea of knowing the intent of the photographer. That way you can say whether or not you think they missed the mark.
I am sure this has been suggested before, but I would love to have a meta CRITIQUE gallery. Perhaps you could only post one photo a week so folks would have time to engage in some of the give and take of a critique. Users would only post in this gallery if they truely want honest feedback and all feedback would be public so we could all learn. I also think this would help me hone my eye and critical skills. I think my strength is more in the area of composition and less in the technical areas and I would like to get better. Thoughts on this approach? If there are folks that are interested, how could we move this forward?--Rene
I am sure this has been suggested before, but I would love to have a meta CRITIQUE gallery. Perhaps you could only post one photo a week so folks would have time to engage in some of the give and take of a critique. Users would only post in this gallery if they truely want honest feedback and all feedback would be public so we could all learn. I also think this would help me hone my eye and critical skills. I think my strength is more in the area of composition and less in the technical areas and I would like to get better. Thoughts on this approach? If there are folks that are interested, how could we move this forward?--Rene
- Posts: 1251
for advocates of a crititque forum
Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:44 pm
(and that would NOT include me...if you want critique of your photos there are plenty of ways to achieve that such as OTHER sites and making a topic or indicating with a "*" next to your photo title, such as the challenge pages here on pbase do)
....then you need to hop over to this thread
http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=19452
....then you need to hop over to this thread
http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=19452
- Posts: 331
Re: for advocates of a crititque forum
Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:21 pm
jypsee wrote:(and that would NOT include me...if you want critique of your photos there are plenty of ways to achieve that such as OTHER sites and making a topic or indicating with a "*" next to your photo title, such as the challenge pages here on pbase do)
....then you need to hop over to this thread
http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=19452
Why should she or anyone else have to go to another site to get critique? I think if people just say what they actually feel about a photo whether it is simply well done, good work, or a paragraph, as long as it is their honest opinion then it should be fine. If someone finds fault with a photo and says so they should explain and not just give some passé answer. As long as people are not getting PERSONAL then the comments should be fine.
Duncan
Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:34 pm
Guys I have re up loaded the image I refered to as being loved by this site and slated on another. I have directed Duncan and Rene to the second edit of this foto, but to see what the version I originally posted looks like go to:
http://www.pbase.com/maani/image/57648803.jpg
Open analysis welcome
It's been re posted just for that reason x
http://www.pbase.com/maani/image/57648803.jpg
Open analysis welcome
It's been re posted just for that reason x
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