Request for "brutally honest critique" :-)

[michaelsv]

This is a copy of post I created in the "Feature Request" forum.

What do you think? May be someone can give an idea how to implement this with the existing features.

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In the past there were several attempts to receive a critique comments from fellow pbasers. IMO most of them failed, since people not always knew which picture the critique requested, which not and. I think there is a way to make it work.

Is that possible to implement the following feature.

One check mark filed from image description page to be propagated to the meta PAD gallery with image's thumb. I would call this field "Request for brutally honest critique" . Just kidding.... But may be "Request for the critique"

The intention is for the photographer to "tick" this field and make it become visible as some character (for example "CC") along with photographer name in PAD meta gallery or any other place that thumbnail and artist's name of that picture appears.

This way any member interested to here "brutally honest critique" will be able to let know others that he is ready to bite it. And others know that that critique has been requested, so they do not afraid to post it.

This might open a "can of worms" for the commenting, so I suggest that only Pbase logged on members will be able to comment on that particular picture.

Again the intent is to provide photographer who what it critique comments that might help him to improve his/her skills.

Happy shooting,
Michael.

Here is my original thread from "Feature request" forum

http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?p=157993#157993

Michael.

[halesr]

Michael, I share your frustration with this aspect of PBASE. There have been suggestions in the past along these same lines.

Here are two approaches I think might work. These are fledgling ideas and need more refinement. I can even accept brutally honest critique of these suggestions.

1. Create another meta gallery patterned after the PAD. You designate a single gallery as your BHC (brutally honest critique gallery). You can only post one image a day for this serious critique. You might even describe what you were trying to achieve with the image you post. Then people provide thoughtful analysis and suggestions. This makes it very clear that these images are posted for critique. When I provide critique now, I do it in a private message as I am not sure of the desire of the poster. In the BHC gallery, I would feel comfortable making my comments public so we can all learn from the feedback.

2. Create a forum like Show N Tell that is CRITIQUE MY IMAGE. People post and everyone knows that if you post in this forum you are ASKING for public constructive feedback.

I actually favor the first option as I think it avoids the tendency to hog the forum by posting many images a day.

Since these features are already present in PBASE, I think it would only take the administration choosing one of these and setting it in motion.

Here is how I attempted to solve my need for critique.

I found a group of photographers in my area. We meet once a month. I would have preferred every other week. We bring new work and discuss it. We bring things we are please with and we bring things that are not working. We have open discussions. One thing that is a plus for meeting face to face is that you build trust. That is a bit harder to do online. Oh, you only need 6 - 8 folks to have this work well. A photographer named Paul Butzi has information on how to set up a group like this at web site. Here is a link http://www.butzi.net/articles/monday.htm He calls it The Monday Night Group (or, how to improve your photography in one hour a week).

The other thing I did was contract with someone I respect and pay them $XX/hour to give me serious feedback. It has been wonderful. We do this by long distance. I actually post the images on pbase and my mentor views them and provides critique via email.

Both of these options have pushed me. My mentor actually thinks the work you are not clear on is very important as it is talking to you about where you are and where you might be going. He is now trying to get me to pull together a portfolio around some of the themes I keep coming back too.

Anyway, I think I have given you more than 2 cents worth.--Rene

[jypsee]

that already exists where you could post a photo and ask for feedback on it.

[halesr]

Jypsee, perhaps you are correct and Artistic Questions would be the correct forum. But so far, no one has used it that way. It seems the topics are more generally focused on artisitic issues. Here is the current list of topics:

Gaussian Blur on People

Indian beautiful woman Mary

Portraiture - Empathy with the Subject

Taking pictures in cemeteries with a model

Lightroom & Rawshooter for black & white works

Copyrighting images

Anyone use HDR tehnique

Here's one that I can't figure out..can you?

Model Release from People on the Street?

The Mask and old bike

Rules of the 3's

It will be interesting to see if anyone starts using this Forum for critiques.--Rene

[jypsee]

why not give it a whirl?

J
It will be interesting to see if anyone starts using this Forum for critiques.--Rene

[jengle]

This is a great idea - one of the things I thought I would get out of PBase was the ability to get feedback on my photographs. I typically get "Great Shot" or nothing. And I agree it's hard to tell what users want what feedback on which pictures. Sometimes I'll leave a comment like, "Very nice, you might think of doing...". I like the PaD option where you can submit a picture for critique. I don't usually monitor the forums, but I do monitor my comments.

[djwixx]

If I have suggestions I normally post a comment, then follow the same comment up with a private comment with suggestions. I've almost never had a response, so mostly people don't want to know what is wrong, or don't take it the way it was intended.

I've had one comment on one of my pictures suggesting a sharpness issue for the dof which I eventually figured out to be a hyperfocal distance issue, but I'm still struggling with that - any pointers welcome!!

I'm not convinced any serious critique would be forthcoming on Pbase. I gather fredmiranda.com is a good place for that, but I also gather you'll be torn apart if you haven't already got a clue what you're doing.

The problem with Pbase is that most of the feedback is via the PAD meta gallery which has essentially become a show and tell forum, or via the popular galleries which you have to be in to win!!! People who like what they're doing just want feedback to that effect. Many PADers are just enjoying the social interaction with other PADers and those two groups don't want to meet in the middle as to what is acceptable for the PAD meta galleries - the 'name and shame' forum entry being an example.

Personally, lots of "nice shots" worked for me, to a degree. If a picture bombed I could see and appreciate why, but it was a PAD so a large number of pictures were destined to bomb.

There are a large number of challenges in the forums which go on at the moment and they generate feedback, albeit pleasant feedback. Why not start challenges that specifically request 'critique'?

UPDATE:
I hasten to add, this forum entry is about two weeks old, and has had only 6 responses. That may be an indication of the number of people who want honest critique.

[jeannius]

I just don't think pbase is a place for real honest and constructive feedback.

People DON'T want it normally, I've noticed if you ever give a criticism on a photo, the next 5 comments will be DEFENDING the photo....

Maybe a "Topics" group of people who want constructive criticism would work.

I used to have a flickr account (and I really liked it so let's not start THAT debate again) but there were some excellent groups there for honest feedbackand criticism. You can have a free account there and enter the photos you want feedback on into those groups and you will get it. You may get torn up, or not...but it's at least by people who also WANT that feedback.

On pbase, if I want to give my honest opinion and if it's NOT in FAVOR of the photo, I'll do it with a private comment so as not to get attacked by the next few people who comment.

[macha]

UPDATE:
I hasten to add, this forum entry is about two weeks old, and has had only 6 responses. That may be an indication of the number of people who want honest critique.

I had noticed that but two days ago I decided to try a different approach. For the PoD challenge b&w with the individual threads, I took it upon myself to actually ask people for thier thoughts. I already had the captive audience as I was also reciprocating in kind.

I did recieve many 'I think it is fine as is' but also had four good tips (including someone sent me a tutorial for photoshop) which I found helpful.

With that said, I think in the right crowd you get what you ask for.

As for the Artistic Questions forum perhaps it it had been labeled with the word 'critique' in the title some people would get it. Just a thought....

[michaelsv]

I just don't think pbase is a place for real honest and constructive feedback.

People DON'T want it normally, I've noticed if you ever give a criticism on a photo, the next 5 comments will be DEFENDING the photo....

I don't think this is exactly the case. I would rephrase it this way: People on Pbase do not critique, because they do not know if critique is wanted and will be accepted calmly and with appreciation. And this is exactly was my point. In most cases when you looking just on photo you do not know if artist wants any constructive critique or not. I was suggesting to give a viewer clear sign "You can be brutally honest with me. I'm asking for the troubles and I won't bite you back whatever you say" Well, may be "almost brutally":-).

Sure one can put a captions under the photo asking to do the same, but in this case chances for the image to be noticed is very slim. Think about it for the moment. Image one is asking critique is not probably that good, so many people just ignore it in the PAD meta gallery. That's why I suggest some indication in meta gallery that image is asking for "troubles" . This why people browsing meta gallery or favorite's galleries will know that someone is asking for their critique opinion.

And here it comes to the matter of taste, politeness and good manners. I think vast majority artists here have it and you won;t be torn apart with comments like "What an ugly picture" or so.

One more important thing. If one asking critique about particular image it does not mean that starting that moment all his or her posts will be criticized. Idea to get this on discrete basis for the particular images artists is interested to get feedback. ON the rest of images I would expect usual appreciation and voting

Forums do not work usually. I tried to organize critique groups in several yahoo forums and it did not really worked out. In my opinion because the audience is limited there. Even if a group has 2000 members only 25 usually post on regular basis, majority just read. PAD is viewed by thousands, so chances for this to work is high. We just do not have to carry away and always be polite.


My two cents.
Michael.

[jengle]

After reading this post (and others) I followed the suggestion on one to post a request in the Artistic forum and request feedback. Initially I only got a couple of responses (but they were good) and I checked yesterday and had gotten several more - also asking that I do the same to theirs. That spurred me to do some edits to the photo.

I also changed my 'style' of providing feedback when I browse PaDs and new entries in galleries. I explain why I like what I see and sometimes what I would do different. Not that I'm an expert, but I do know what I like.

That has increased the amount of constructive feedback on my site. But like another post stated, not all photos require feedback. I have some blog photos that I'm leaving all of them on until I get a chance to cull them to put together a more concise story. And to tell the whole story I may include some not-so-perfect pictures because the story is half of what I'm trying to convey.

I'm going to add a critique gallery to my site so people can know what I would like feedback on. Reading about the Monday Night group indicates that 6 to 10 people getting together is plenty. It also forces an individual to pick one or two photos they want to get feedback on.

The question is how do we let others know we have a Critique gallery. Since another poster suggested it belongs in the Artistic forum and I was able to get some feedback going this route that's one idea. The other would be to start a 'private' critique group, or more than one depending on the style needing critique.

All in all I have really enjoyed this thread and the feedback I've received. I feel I'm making some more good PBase friends, and it's making photography fun.

Maybe we need a specific Critique forum rather than putting it in the Artistic forum.

Gotta feed my cold.

[floradoragirl]

I think a critique forum might be a good thing, where critique can be specifically requested for specific images. Jeannie's right that a lot of people don't want "honest criticism". Of course that might be because sometimes, the people giving criticism aren't any more "right" than the person who took the photograph and that sometimes the criticsm comes down to personal taste. Two examples.

Example 1. Someone sent me a pm critique on an image, commenting on the poor focus. I took it as a fair comment because the image was too soft and if I wasn't doing a PAD and therefore wanted to have an image for the day rather than no image at all, I probably wouldn't have posted it, I'd probably have binned it. In fact the comment helped in lots of ways however much it stung because it was one of the things that finally helped me to end padding and think again about what I was doing.

Example 2. I once posted a street scene with high contrast between the shady side of the street and the sunny side. Somebody pm'd me to say that he'd like to work on it in photoshop. He lessened the shadows, so that more detail could be seen in them. I didn't actually like his version, what I liked about my image was the high contrast between shade and sun. I didn't want to see the, to me, unimportant detail in the shade. For me, the photographer, the shot was about contrast and light and on every monitor I've looked at it on, for my tastes, I got the balance right.

Are his views more valid than mine then? He might be a better photographer but does that mean that my ideas are less important, that my artistic vision, (to use a totally pretentious phrase ), is less valid? It's this line that gets blurred when we look at images here and give *honest criticism*. What are we criticising? What level are we criticisng on? Is it technicalities or artistry, or both.

I'm not saying honest criticism is a bad thing because it's not, it's a good thing, but we should remember it's totally subjective and that the person giving the criticism might not be any more informed than you.

[djwixx]

Example 2. I once posted a street scene with high contrast between the shady side of the street and the sunny side. Somebody pm'd me to say that he'd like to work on it in photoshop. He lessened the shadows, so that more detail could be seen in them. I didn't actually like his version, what I liked about my image was the high contrast between shade and sun. I didn't want to see the, to me, unimportant detail in the shade. For me, the photographer, the shot was about contrast and light and on every monitor I've looked at it on, for my tastes, I got the balance right.

NOT AT ALL, each to their own.

Everyone on Pbase is at vastly different levels and for many (like me) they're learning something new every day. I'm sure I get bogged down with the technical aspect and I know on certain occasions I've offerer similar advice, but probably more because I've suddenly realized how to do it and like to share!!!

Luckily no photography/picture is actually wrong, if the result was as intended. Unfortunately an artistic photographer and a technical photographer probably don't mix very well when it comes to what is considered reasonable.

If requesting critique I would suspect you need to emphasize the intent and ask why the result doesn't match. Also most pictures that are uploaded are because someone has already made a conscious decision that something about the picture worked, so I'm not sure if brutal honesty would be a good thing. For me (in PADs) no comments means I missed something.[/quote]

[blachly]

I agree that you could base the quality of the photo off of the comments. However, there are times when you shoot a really good photo but you want some comments on how to slightly improve it before you publish it or enter it in competitions.

Jeff Engle's photo is a great example. The photo is an awsome photo of a fern. He received some good critique on how to slightly change the photo.

At the same time half the critique he received said to remove a small stick in the photo and the other half said to keep it. That of course is all about art and taste and the fact that not everyone is going to agree.

I have a whole gallery of my Best Photos. Those are the photos I would truly want as much honest critique on because those are the photos I am going to enter into competitions, etc.

I like the idea of a critique forum. But if we don't get that, count me in for a critique group if anyone forms one.

Mike
http://www.pbase.com/blachly

[michaelsv]

For me (in PADs) no comments means I missed something.

Not necessary. I have many examples (mune and not only mine) when a great picture goes almost unnoticed, with no comments or votes. On the other hand. May be photographer also thinks that picture is not that good, and she/he wants people to say their opinion, helping him to improve it. Im most cases today he won't get it for two reasons.
1. Picture is not good for anyone to notice it, but they do not know that intend was to get a critique.
2. Picture is not bad, but not a WOW one, so many just won't look at it, since there are plenty of other images to look at.

This is exactly the situation I was targeting, asking for the feature.

If one looks in PAD meta-gallery and notice that under "not that good" picture there is a sign for critique request, he might take time and left critique, without being affraid of getting furious response back.

Today if I seen image that for some reasons I do not like I just won't leave any comment, since I do not know what was intention behind the post.