What we have here is a failure to (Admin) communicate.

[akmc_in_au]

I’m spinning this off from the "a target?" thread because it would drive that one completely off topic, but something that nooutlet posted triggered an issue that has been niggling me for a while now.

"The problem is that we can't limit non-supporters from posting in the forums as they're the same people who might end up being supporters if they can get PBase to do what they want. We need them to have the ability to ask questions that shed light on issues which would otherwise prevent them from becoming supporters."

Well, let's just hope that they don't ask questions like:
- "Why is my Exif data screwed up with respect to reporting the use of a flash, and how come it's been almost half a year since an Admin advised that it would be fixed Real Soon Now?"
- "Why has the 'frequently asked feature requests' list not been updated for almost 18 months?"
- "Will we EVER see features like Geotagging or UTF-8 support? Or won't we? Will someone just SAY something, anything?"
- Oh, and a biggie... "Why do previously functioning features like JavaScript or Flash SUDDENLY DISAPPEAR AT THE WHIM OF THE ADMINS WITHOUT ANY FORM OF ANNOUNCEMENT OR EXPLANATION, other than bemused paying members showing up in one of the Forums to ask 'hey, how come my x feature doesn't work any more?'" (I haven't been a victim of that one, but I'd be ropeable if I had been and could understand other users feeling that way when their carefully-crafted galleries go funky on them.)

It's not the fact that the Admins are doing nothing; obviously they jumped on our spamming "friend" in pretty quick order and kudos for that. It's that what they ARE doing appears to be at random (some things get addressed quickly, some things never get addressed it seems) and they aren't communicating what they ARE doing. I mean, really, would it be too much to ask for a 'frequently asked feature requests' list to be posted and updated EACH month?

"No" would also be an acceptable answer in such a list. For example I know that hosting of videos is a feature often asked for and that equally there are those (myself included) who are opposed lest pBase become YouTube's less ugly little brother. (There's some good material on YouTube, but gods you have to work to find it.) pBase may therefore opt to not implement some often requested features, be it video, flash, whatever... just TELL us where you stand on those in a single, easy to refer to thread.

And for the things that ARE being worked on, I'm talking a little more detail than "Work in progress"... but even then that's something that might take 15 or 20 minutes a month to do. yet how much goodwill would it generate in return?

There's one thing worse (from an average customer's perspective) than receiving bad service... and that's being ignored and/or taken for granted. For anyone in doubt of that, you need look no further than Trimoon's post under the heading "Incompetence" in this Forum. Man that was harsh. But I can see where he's coming from.

My own view is that the Admins need to have a clearer workflow, and more communication with the members. OK, maybe it's stating the obvious... but it doesn't seem to be happening.

[nooutlet]

Alright, let's try that.
To answer the questions you posed just after my quote...
1. I don't know. None of us three have messed with EXIF data at all. I guess we'll look into that when we get around to it. Doesn't seem like such a big deal though and certainly doesn't seem like a dealbreaker for a user. The three new programmers weren't the ones that said Real Soon. We're working on other things that seem more important.
2. I don't know. I guess the feature requests that have been frequently asked in the past haven't changed much?
3. Yes. Conrad is working on geotagging with a Google maps interface and our concept of it is pretty nifty. UTF-8 has not been worked on. Why were these joined?
4. Because of a potential exploit that became apparent, though I get that the real problem is the lack of an announcement. Well, that's the point of the thread I'm about to create.

[dang]

Thanks NoOutlet,
Also, let me note that I (or no one else that I know of) is upset with you guys, and understand you came in long after so many of the issues were brought up. But having updates is important so we'll have an idea of what is being done, and explanations of what isn't. So an update thread would be greatly appreciated, and has for a long time been at the top of the list.

[akmc_in_au]

These weren't cases of having a go at you personally, but about the failure of the Admins to keep us advised of what they're doing in any structured fashion. These were just random examples. But in response to your responses...

First, the Exif issue:

Alright, let's try that.
To answer the questions you posed just after my quote...
1. I don't know.

The good news is that you won't have to look far to find it. Try one thread down (as one random example) at the time of writing:

http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=35002

In relation to who said what, it's right here:
http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=31036

We are currently working on our EXIF extraction in order to avoid this problem. Also, don't worry the change will be retroactive, meaning that existing galleries with this error will be fixed as well

That was June. It's now December. Two follow-up queries in that thread elicited nothing, bubkis, in the way of a response.

None of us three have messed with EXIF data at all. I guess we'll look into that when we get around to it. Doesn't seem like such a big deal though and certainly doesn't seem like a dealbreaker for a user. The three new programmers weren't the ones that said Real Soon. We're working on other things that seem more important.

Nice attitude. More important to whom? You, or the users who ultimately pay your wages? And that comes back to the central point; the question of whether anyone in there is listening to the people who put their hand into their pocket.

2. I don't know. I guess the feature requests that have been frequently asked in the past haven't changed much?

Nor has the progress towards implementing them, it would seem. And that, again, is part of the problem. The greater part is that none of the users are being told what, if anything, IS being done in working toward implementing them.

3. Yes. Conrad is working on geotagging with a Google maps interface and our concept of it is pretty nifty. UTF-8 has not been worked on. Why were these joined?

Why not? The one thing that they have in common is that they're two random examples of extended threads in which users have, over a long period of time, been asking for features and receiving no feedback from the Admins as to when or whether they'll be implemented.

Here's the UTF-8 one that goes back over 3 years with no input from Admins... no "yes we'll implement that on such and such a date", no "no, we won't be implementing that because...", no word at all.

http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=4774

And here's the Geotagging one:

http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=30071

Which DID have an admin response; stating that "We have started developing this as a future project "... 6 months ago.

I know that this can't be done overnight. I also know that having an "upcoming features" thread which describes where development is up to would cost very little time and gain much goodwill.

At the risk of mixing responses from the same thread:

Also, let me note that I (or no one else that I know of) is upset with you guys,

Neither was I until that last post, and more specifically the response to the Exif issue. It's not like it was mentioned once, long ago. And it's not like (if anyone READS the user postings) the extent of irritation isn't obvious. I wasn't (previously) upset so much as recognising the fact that there's an increasing perception that Admin responsiveness was becoming more and more of An Issue. But I beg to differ about the number of people who ARE upset around here. To give two random examples:

http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=28994

http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=34685

And that doesn't count the times when functionality has just stopped working; I think plenty of "upset" will be found in those threads. "We can't tell you because it's a sooper-sekret security thing" doesn't cut it. And thankfully:

4. Because of a potential exploit that became apparent, though I get that the real problem is the lack of an announcement. Well, that's the point of the thread I'm about to create.

That at least restores a little confidence.

[nooutlet]

The good news is that you won't have to look far to find it. Try one thread down (as one random example) at the time of writing:

Nice attitude. More important to whom? You, or the users who ultimately pay your wages? And that comes back to the central point; the question of whether anyone in there is listening to the people who put their hand into their pocket.

I'm only saying that I don't know why EXIF data is messed up because none of us three have worked on it. Emily is working on the EXIF data problem. It doesn't seem that would be important to most users. I would think they'd be concerned about basic functionality and interface rather than whether the hardware that is reported to have developed an image is the hardware that actually did. I mean, when I look at a gallery, I look at the images. I can see that a professional photographer might be interested in HOW the picture was taken and with what equipment, but that's not what I think about when I look at an image.
I'm not saying EXIF data will never be fixed because it's not important to anyone. We'd like to supply that information(after all, we TRIED to), but right now we three new programmers are working on other things.

Nor has the progress towards implementing them, it would seem. And that, again, is part of the problem. The greater part is that none of the users are being told what, if anything, IS being done in working toward implementing them.

Yes, that was part of my meaning. And that last part is addressed with my new thread in News.

...receiving no feedback from the Admins as to when or whether they'll be implemented.

Well, I just told you that Conrad is working on one of them. Slug mentioned the UTF-8 to me when I started working, but as you are obviously aware, there are other things to get to.

Here's the UTF-8 one that goes back over 3 years with no input from Admins... no "yes we'll implement that on such and such a date", no "no, we won't be implementing that because...", no word at all.

Well, I've got a lot of things on the stove right now, but I do know about the issue and it's on the counter.

Geotagging one... 6 months ago.

A future project that I have said is in development now, only 6 months later!

...very little time and gain much goodwill.

Responding to the forums today has cost me a good amount of time and gained by your own account badwill, if anything. I certainly hope it gets better, or I may not make it a habit.

Neither was I until that last post, and more specifically the response to the Exif issue.

So, what is the motivation to respond if you'll just get mad about how I feel about EXIF data?

That at least restores a little confidence.

Well, I care about what you all want. You can see what happens when you think something you care about isn't being worked on(and I didn't even mean it that way); you got upset. It's easy to say "We'll work on that." because we want to, but other things need to be worked on too. I can tell you what we're doing(new thread in News) and I can tell you what I'm interested in doing soon(new forum). But I don't want to and I won't promise when other things that I haven't even looked at are going to be finished.

[akmc_in_au]

I'm only saying that I don't know why EXIF data is messed up because none of us three have worked on it. Emily is working on the EXIF data problem. It doesn't seem that would be important to most users. I would think they'd be concerned about basic functionality and interface rather than whether the hardware that is reported to have developed an image is the hardware that actually did. I mean, when I look at a gallery, I look at the images. I can see that a professional photographer might be interested in HOW the picture was taken and with what equipment, but that's not what I think about when I look at an image.
I'm not saying EXIF data will never be fixed because it's not important to anyone. We'd like to supply that information(after all, we TRIED to), but right now we three new programmers are working on other things.

OK, I can see your point. Mine was less about the Exif information itself (which I admit is something that I regard as important; not vital, but important), than about the fact that it seems to be a recurring issue in the Forums. That in turn means that it's significant enough to more than a couple of users. My feeling is that the frustration is born from feedback issues, and that the feedback issues could be addressed by a full list of not only what's planned, but where development is at and when the end result can be expected.

Nor has the progress towards implementing them, it would seem. And that, again, is part of the problem. The greater part is that none of the users are being told what, if anything, IS being done in working toward implementing them.

Yes, that was part of my meaning. And that last part is addressed with my new thread in News.

It's certainly a step in a good direction.

Geotagging one... 6 months ago.

A future project that I have said is in development now, only 6 months later!

But as I mentioned, it's not the time lag that's an issue; it's understood that these things take time. It would be useful for users to know where a project is on a regular basis. In the thread that I referred to I recall at least one user mentioning that they were looking elsewhere. If they knew where a project is up to, and when they could expect it to be finalised, they're more likely to stick it out. As things stand, too many users hear "we're working on x, y or z" then hear nothing further on it for months on end. Maybe it'll come some day, maybe never. They don't know, they get frustrated, they start looking elsewhere.

...very little time and gain much goodwill.

Responding to the forums today has cost me a good amount of time and gained by your own account badwill, if anything.

Weeeelll... prior to that post, maybe. Water, bridge, all that. I still believe that pBase needs some more structured way of keeping users appraised of the progress of projects than occasional Forum posts (not that Forum posts are a bad idea, if they're comprehensive and users can get a "big picture" of where the site is going), but as I said steps seem to be going in a good direction.

[madlights]

While I understand the complexities (well I really don't understand the complexities, but know it's got to be complex) of running an operation such as PBase...I do think it would really help to have a dedicated info box (this has been asked for, for years)....probably with no answers allowed so people don't try to flame the admins. So as to inform members as to what is going on with regards to things such as the disablement of javasript, etc. or features being worked on, or "hey bear with us we're working on a server"... or why don't the guestbooks say "sorry only members can post" (I really like PBase and it's ability to be customized, and how easy it is to navigate once you get the hang of it) My real complaint since I've been on PBase is the lack of admins communication with the users... and some of the most dedicated and knowledgeable/creative people have given up creating and helping because of this...there have been glimpses of light...for short times. I do think at least a thread in the NEWS, if it's used, would help this impression that many of us have, Thanks

And on a seperate note...why can't there be ONE section of the forum where non supporters are allowed to post and ask questions? Most of the people on here don't mind and sometimes go way out of their way to answer the questions of new people. In fact for those who enjoy helping new people...it would enable easier finding of them, and it wouldn't have to be solely dedicated to new people...it could still be 'Questions and Answers' for example? The same type of gradation that supporters and non supporters get with posting photos...and it would sure help in cutting the spam and nuisance posts.

[jkseidel]

But as I mentioned, it's not the time lag that's an issue; it's understood that these things take time. It would be useful for users to know where a project is on a regular basis. In the thread that I referred to I recall at least one user mentioning that they were looking elsewhere. If they knew where a project is up to, and when they could expect it to be finalised, they're more likely to stick it out. As things stand, too many users hear "we're working on x, y or z" then hear nothing further on it for months on end. Maybe it'll come some day, maybe never. They don't know, they get frustrated, they start looking elsewhere.

Exactly. Silence, in many cases, is not golden. It doesn't matter to me how many improvements are going on in the background, if the users know nothing about them, then they gather nothing is happening. At that point, they may decide to move on, not refer friends, give negative reviews that causes potential new customers to consider looking elsewhere. Avoiding or abandoning communications with the customer base is a suicidal road to running a business.

...very little time and gain much goodwill.

Responding to the forums today has cost me a good amount of time and gained by your own account badwill, if anything.

One might think it is a good business practice to announce what's coming up and in the works. Especially since such news has been sparse and implementations not forthcoming around here. Even a stickied announcement post that is closed to responses would be beneficial, and save you from wasting time responding to patrons.

My own view is that the Admins need to have a clearer workflow, and more communication with the members. OK, maybe it's stating the obvious... but it doesn't seem to be happening.

Exactly.

[srijith]

- "Why has the 'frequently asked feature requests' list not been updated for almost 18 months?"

Since I was the one who started the list, let me reply. I stopped updating the thread for three reasons (1) Realised that the list was not something the PBase admins really cared about at all! (2) I stopped reading the forum post diligently enough to capture all the new requests in and no one really PMed me about adding anything new in there. (3) I kind of stopped working on all things PBase related except upload snaps, as a typical user.

Responding to the forums today has cost me a good amount of time and gained by your own account badwill, if anything. I certainly hope it gets better, or I may not make it a habit.

Nooutlet, first of all thanks for answering some of the burning questions, especially the News post. You got to realise, however, that when people ask pointed questions or express their disappointment, it is not targeted at you at all but because you happen to be the only PBase employee who has wandered into the forums in the last couple of months.

That said, let me ask put this question out there, with the hope it will be answered - does PBase have an employee whose job is customer support? Not the programmers, not the owners, just customer support - answering email to support@pbase.com and answering questions posted on the forums? I was kind of surprised the first time Slug mentioned to me that they consider the forums to be a place in which users help themselves and they (admins) don't really want to or have the time to hang around. That was a rude shock.

[sheila]

I have been a member of PBase for nearly six years, and was a subscriber long before it was necessary to be so. The one thing which bothered many of us was the complete lack of communication between PBase and its customers. Silence was indeed golden. There are many of us here such as Dang (bless him), Andrys and last but not least Srijith were the voices of PBase and if it were not for them, a lot of members would have fled this site. Dang's response in another thread was not a rant, it was sheer pent up frustration at the PBase management's complete lack of communication.

It would appear that "Feature Requests" is never read by management. It has been left to other members to assist new members with new stylesheets. The current PBase stylesheets have been in existence since I joined six years ago and to my knowledge have never been updated. We only got slides after other members kindly assisted other members with the text to place in the CSS. And then PBase disabled Java and the slides fell over with no notice to those using them.

I use another site to sell to customers prints in all sizes, on canvas, laminated, mounted and even greetings card. They have offices in the US, UK and Australia. You can choose US dollars, Euros and Pommie pounds to pay for the prints. Its still a small company and their prints are excellent. I do not use it to print for myself. I have an Epson R2400 for that purpose.

So, PBase, don't shoot the messenger.

Sheila

[nooutlet]

Why can't you guys update us on what you're doing with something more than an occasional forum post - though the occasional forum post is a good start.

You should make it so that we can't respond, so you don't have to waste time reading our flames and then responding to them.

Right now, my idea is to keep the new thread in News updated and unlocked/public. Sometimes I might want responses or suggestions about a certain feature that I'm working on. Positive responses will encourage me to think of ways to make something into exactly what you want because it shows that you're interested in what you imagine the feature to be like(how do you say this correctly?). Suggestions may help me figure out what it is you're interested in.

Slug mentioned to me that they consider the forums to be a place in which users help themselves and they (admins) don't really want to or have the time to hang around

We were hired as programmers. We aren't given any suggestions about keeping you updated I guess because of what you said. That is basically all I know about it.
When we started working at PBase, there wasn't much we could do. We didn't have development servers of our own, so we couldn't see our own code in action and so we didn't code for the most part. I tried to get into the role of a PBase member. I made a gallery and tried out things to see what I could do. I talked in the forums a few times and I visited them frequently. I still do visit them daily to see new complaints and sometimes to look at the S&T contest, but I don't usually reply because I'm busy working on my code.
When I saw that I was going to be spending a good amount of time on the forums yesterday, I clocked out. I guess because I felt at the time that it's not something slug would want to pay me to do(especially if it would result in akmc_in_au leaving PBase). I'm not clocked in now, of course.
As such, I'd like it if you all(everyone that reads my posts; not just those who have contributed in this thread) didn't look at me as a spokesperson for PBase. Maybe I'll make a signature that says something like "The views expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of PBase, Inc." or something.
To make things clear, I'm only going to tell you what I'm mostly comfortable talking about. For now, that includes what I'm working on and what nkirby is working on. You can suggest feature requests, but slug's plans come first. He has had his Phase II plan for a long time from what I can tell and, whether you see it this way or not, it is huge.

Edit: I was working on this post for long enough that sheila sneaked her post in before mine without me knowing. She did not recommend making a feedback box, so do not include her in the "everyone" from the first quote of this post.
I appreciate everything sheila said(especially about dang, andrys and srijith being helpful - trust me, it's noticed). Oh, if you're really happy with the printer, you might drop Emily a line about them and perhaps we'll use them for prints abroad.
It keeps being told to me to not take things personally and now "don't shoot the messenger", but I didn't think I had done either. I understand all of your positions with regards to not getting feedback or results on certain things. It's frustrating. I think the things I'm saying are being interpreted as self-defense, but really I'm saying all that I know or think about whatever issue and if I don't know anything, I'll try to explain why I don't.
But please, don't call me "PBase". I'm just NoOutlet.

[pinemikey]

From what I can see, any communication, whether it be official (better) or not is a step in the right direction and will go miles to easing the worries and frustrations of members of Pbase. Just give us a idea which way the wind is blowing. Thanks for your efforts in this regard.

[akmc_in_au]

First off, thanks to nooutlet to take the time to discuss this, especially the "off the clock" time.

The remainder of this post (aside from the context-generating quote below) is about the site itself.

When I saw that I was going to be spending a good amount of time on the forums yesterday, I clocked out. I guess because I felt at the time that it's not something slug would want to pay me to do(especially if it would result in akmc_in_au leaving PBase).

Hmmm... I'm sure that Slug wouldn't care that much one way or t'other about losing me specifically or my paltry 23 bucks, but of course it's not the one or two who stand up and say "I've had it, I'm leaving" that he has to worry about; it's the impossible-to-measure number who just vote with their feet without saying a word. It IS indeed up to Slug to set PBase's strategy for customer communication, but I can't imagine why he wants it to be as it is.

And here's one big reason why:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/TECHNOLOGY/N ... 80876.html

Yahoo Inc. is touching up its popular online photo-sharing service, Flickr, with free editing tools aimed at the growing number of shutterbugs who want to doctor their digital pictures.

{Snip}

The editing software fills a glaring void at Flickr, which has blossomed into one of the Web's busiest photo-sharing communities.

Most of Flickr's rivals, including Shutterfly Inc., Hewlett-Packard Co.'s Snapfish, Kodak Gallery and Google Inc.'s Picasa, already offer free photo-editing tools.

{Snip}

Even without the allure of photo editing, according to comScore Media Metrix, Flickr is the most-trafficked U.S. photo-sharing site that doesn't revolve around a social network.

Flickr attracted 14.7 million U.S. visitors in October, ranking only behind Facebook Inc.'s photo-sharing service, which had 23.2 million visitors, and Photobucket.com, which had 22.2 million and caters to MySpace.com users. Both Photobucket and MySpace are owned by News Corp.

PBase (and other sites like SmugMug) are conspicuous by their absence from such articles. When the mainstream media writes about photo sharing sites, unless you're one of the major corporate sites in general and that blue and pink branding abomination in particular then you may as well be http://www.I'mInvisible.com. That leaves word of mouth as a primary marketing tool. I've brought in at least one additional member in the handful of months I've been here with another one thinking about it, and I'm sure that this is not uncommon. The problem is that this multiplier effect can also work in reverse.

It's fine a company to say "Hey, we're working on a great new product, just wait, it'll knock your socks off!". The problem is if they go to launch that product, look around and say, "Hey, where'd all our customers go?" It reminds me of a book I read recently about marketing blunders in the IT field. It featured a business owner standing on railroad tracks, looking out toward the reader with a powerful set of binoculars... and a freight train looming up behind him.

As I said, it's pBase's / Slug's choice about what their policy will be. A number of members have sounded the warning bell in this thread, and there's probably not that much more that can be said. Whether the bell is heeded... that's now up to pBase itself.

[madlights]

I think most of us realize that the people that work for Slug aren't the makers of policy. It's just that people express their opinions and suggestions because they WANT PBase to succeed. Most of use have put a lot of time and effort into our sites and we really don't want to see PBase decline. I've been on here for a while, and the biggest complaint I've seen is that there is very little communication, especially when PBase is having problems. Kathy tried...there was even a group on Yahoo for times when PBase went down. But it seems to many, that all suggestions and any interaction with the opinions of the users are ignored by the OWNERS of PBase...and it puts the programmers in the middle. Many corporations do understand the validity of PR. and actually pay people to do it...rather than requiring them to do it on their own time. I say this all not in any way to attack anyone. It's just that some things seem clearer to me now than at first when I signed up a few years ago...
Slugs grand plan may be great. But why can't a simple "we can't do this feature request because" or "we've got a server acting up" or any kind of respect for the users, be shown by the owners of this site. I know you can't answer this question NoOutlet....but I think that's why there is sometimes a mood of hostility....if people are treated like a pack of wolves for long enough they may start acting like one. And I think this is what it's about. I like the one about the guy with the binoculars on the railroad track.

[andrys]

nooutlet, thanks again for your personal efforts here.

You shouldn't have to clock-out if Slug and Emily care about their business.
It's because you obviously care that some of us have hope.

I've brought 6 people here in the past year and a half and I'm fond of
the place, but they sometimes ask me why not another place. For me, it's
all about how the photos are presented, and right now the flexibility and
clean look interest me the most.

What doesn't is really slow drawing thumbnails and images as has been
happening here lately. I sometimes look to see on my Comcast
connection (very fast) if someone loaded a 1meg file and then find out
it's only a 150k image.

It's been steadily slower for the last month. Does Slug care about that?

We're actually a patient bunch. If pbase just had a one-way STATUS page
with feedback in a specific forum location for you, when you want it,
that would solve many problems and we've said that a few times.
Emily mentioned once they were working on something like that.

See http://status.blogger.com and http://blog.statconter.com

(statcounter.com has a Service Status forum page as well.

/////
As for the rest of it, it IS important to me that guests know they can
comment with -optional- email addresses that even if given us will not be
displayed. It will encourage more feedback.

On the forums, as I said, non-supporting-pbase-members should
post only in Q&A and there should be someone watching either the Q&A
forum or the abuse@pbase.com email to get rid of bad links that would
hurt pbase.com google rankings if they stayed up more than a day.

Thanks again for making the effort here !